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	<title>Comments for The Math Factor Podcast</title>
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		<title>Comment on GL. Math 2033 by Scott Bartholomew</title>
		<link>http://mathfactor.uark.edu/2009/11/gl-math-2033/comment-page-1/#comment-663</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Bartholomew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mathfactor.uark.edu/?p=893#comment-663</guid>
		<description>Wow. Sounds like it&#039;s going really well. Takes me back to your Number Theory class that I took back in 2000. Good luck with the rest of the semester and with the future of this course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. Sounds like it&#8217;s going really well. Takes me back to your Number Theory class that I took back in 2000. Good luck with the rest of the semester and with the future of this course.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Morris: &#8230;and the clocks struck thirteen by Kyle</title>
		<link>http://mathfactor.uark.edu/2009/07/morris-and-the-clocks-struck-thirteen/comment-page-1/#comment-662</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:18:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mathfactor.uark.edu/?p=693#comment-662</guid>
		<description>3: The clock is running backwards and you coincidentally saw it when it was positioned two minutes before the current time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>3: The clock is running backwards and you coincidentally saw it when it was positioned two minutes before the current time.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Morris: Living with Crazy Buttocks by Stephen Morris</title>
		<link>http://mathfactor.uark.edu/2009/10/morris-living-with-crazy-buttocks/comment-page-1/#comment-660</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:36:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mathfactor.uark.edu/?p=825#comment-660</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Some great answers.  I&#039;ve posted solution and the formula for calculating the chance of success &lt;a href=&quot;../../11/morris-follow-up-living-with-crazy-buttocks/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some great answers.  I&#8217;ve posted solution and the formula for calculating the chance of success <a href="../../11/morris-follow-up-living-with-crazy-buttocks/" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>Comment on AB. The Rational Ruler by Daniel</title>
		<link>http://mathfactor.uark.edu/2005/10/the-rational-ruler/comment-page-1/#comment-657</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:48:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theserver.uark.edu/~strauss/?p=50#comment-657</guid>
		<description>Yes, but some of these are duplicates.  For example, 4,9,10,11 is the same as 1,2,3,8 and 1,5,9,11 is the same as 1,3,7,11.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but some of these are duplicates.  For example, 4,9,10,11 is the same as 1,2,3,8 and 1,5,9,11 is the same as 1,3,7,11.</p>
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		<title>Comment on AB. The Rational Ruler by Travis</title>
		<link>http://mathfactor.uark.edu/2005/10/the-rational-ruler/comment-page-1/#comment-656</link>
		<dc:creator>Travis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theserver.uark.edu/~strauss/?p=50#comment-656</guid>
		<description>I gave this problem to my Algebra I students.  They found 13 different solutions.
1,2,3,8    1,2,6,9    1,3,5,11    1,3,7,11    1,4,5,10
1,4,7,10    1,5,9,11     1,7,8,10    1,7,9,11
2,4,5,11    2,5,8,11    3,6,10,11    4,9,10,11
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I gave this problem to my Algebra I students.  They found 13 different solutions.<br />
1,2,3,8    1,2,6,9    1,3,5,11    1,3,7,11    1,4,5,10<br />
1,4,7,10    1,5,9,11     1,7,8,10    1,7,9,11<br />
2,4,5,11    2,5,8,11    3,6,10,11    4,9,10,11<br />
 </p>
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		<title>Comment on Yoak: Average Salary by RFig</title>
		<link>http://mathfactor.uark.edu/2009/10/yoak-average-salary/comment-page-1/#comment-655</link>
		<dc:creator>RFig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mathfactor.uark.edu/?p=866#comment-655</guid>
		<description>I came up with the same solution however it is very unsatisfying because the third employee is able to see the maximum salary of the other two. Is there another solution where no one can tell the upper end of the others salaries?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I came up with the same solution however it is very unsatisfying because the third employee is able to see the maximum salary of the other two. Is there another solution where no one can tell the upper end of the others salaries?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Morris: Living with Crazy Buttocks by jyoak</title>
		<link>http://mathfactor.uark.edu/2009/10/morris-living-with-crazy-buttocks/comment-page-1/#comment-654</link>
		<dc:creator>jyoak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 01:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mathfactor.uark.edu/?p=825#comment-654</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;That puzzle is absolutely fantastic!  I didn&#039;t recognize it and thus got the fun of tackling it, but once I came upon a solution I became convinced that I&#039;ve seen this before, perhaps with different particulars.  Is this a Martin Gardner puzzle or something?  Has it ever been on the show?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I started trying to solve it like one of my hat puzzles -- trying to divide up the permutations such that when there is going to be any misses that there are tons of misses, but that correct guesses occur together.  It is possible to make improvements over random this way.  Consider 4 books / people, 2 guesses.  (I assume throughout that we can find a way to make the boxes under the tree ordinal in some sense.  &quot;Closest to the southwest corner at the floor with ties broken by being southernmost&quot; or some such.  I assume that solving this isn&#039;t the puzzle you&#039;re aiming for and I treat it as though you can assume the boxes are numbered 1-20.)  If you have people A and B both open boxes 1 and 2 and C and D always open 3 and 4, consider the cases:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;  1:  A B C D&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 2:  A B D C&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 3:  A C B D&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 4:  A C D B&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 5:  A D B C&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 6:  A D C B&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 7:  B A C D&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 8:  B A D C&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 9:  B C A D&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 10: B C D A&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 11: B D A C&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 12: B D C A&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 13: C A B D&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 14: C A D B&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 15: C B A D&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 16: C B D A&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 17: C D A B&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 18: C D B A&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 19: D A B C&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 20: D A C B&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 21: D B A C&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 22: D B C A&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 23: D C A B&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt; 24: D C B A&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;With this strategy, you get 1, 2, 7, 8 or 1/6, which is considerably better than 1/2^4 you get for random.  This kind of idea can be extended to larger numbers of boxes and perhaps improved upon, but it doesn&#039;t feel like a candidate for your favorite puzzle ever.  I then had one of those pull-over-to-the-side-of-the-road epiphanies that you&#039;re throwing away a lot of information.  Strategies of this form presume that you look into a box and see either your book or &quot;not your book.&quot;  You actually see some particular person&#039;s book and can alter behavior based on this event.  That&#039;s a lot to throw away.  How can we use this to cause good guesses to collide?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Consider person A assigned to open the first box.  If he finds his own book, he&#039;s done.  When he finds a book belonging to X, his concern is to open another box such that if if he finds his book and X happens to open that box first, that X will make a good decision.  So if he finds B&#039;s book, and he opens box 2, he wants B, if starts at 2, to open box 1 next in the case that A&#039;s book is there and probably not otherwise.  This same logic should apply to everyone.  So generally, that means, that if you assign each person a different starting box, if they don&#039;t find their book, they should open the starting box corresponding to the person owning the book that was found. Assume A assigned 1, B to 2, C to 3, and D to 4.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In case 1, everyone finds their book straight off.  A happy result.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In case 2, A finds his book.  B finds his book.  C finds the book of D, and so opens 4 and finds his book.  4 finds C, opens three and finds his book.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In case 3, A finds his book.  B finds C, thus opens three and finds his book.  C finds B, opens 2, and finds his book.  D finds his book.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In case 4, A finds his book, B finds C, opens 3 and fails.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In case 5, A finds his book.  B finds D, opens 4 and fails.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In case 6, A finds his book.  B finds D, opens 4 and finds his book.  C finds his book.  D finds B, opens 2 and finds his book.   &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Already as many winning cases as my strategy above!  It continues:  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;7: Hit  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;8: Hit  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;9: Fail  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;10: Fail  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;11: Fail  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;12: Fail  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;13: Fail  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;14: Fail  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;15: Hit  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;16: Fail  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;17: Hit  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;18: Fail  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;19: Fail  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;20: Fail  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;21: Fail  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;22: Hit  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;23: Fail  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;24: Hit   &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So we get to go to Paris a staggering 10/24 times.  Since 12/24 or 1/2 seems to be a theoretical maximum, that&#039;s just astounding!  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;To extend this to the case of 20, After opening your second box, you continue on by opening the box of the person&#039;s book you find at each step.  This is the point at which I started to think I&#039;d seen this problem before.  Since you&#039;re following a sort of chain here, you have a finite number of states and since your box is sure to be in the chain (you started with the box to which you&#039;re assigned) you know that if you could keep guessing and following this method that you&#039;d find your book rather than being caught in a loop not containing your book.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The only question is whether the chain that your part of is short enough to get there in 10 hops.  If you look back at the hits and misses from the case of 4, you see that you hit exactly when the state is one that could be obtained by sorting them so each person would find their book initially and the allowing the following operations:  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Leaving a book alone (generates a chain of 1).  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Exchange a book with another (generating a chain of 2).  (This operation can&#039;t be repeating on any book already used in it, of course.)  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In case of a fail, something else happened.  Pick one at random, case 14: C A D B .  With this , there is a chain of positions  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;1-&gt;3-&gt;4-&gt;2
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;and only then back to 1.  A chain of 4.  There should be chains of 3 in there as well.  Looking... 4:  A C D B .  Position 1 is a chain of 1.  The other chain is:  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
2-&gt;3-&gt;4  
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;and then back to two.   
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This chaining idea is familiar to me, but I can&#039;t place where, and I&#039;m pretty sure at least it wasn&#039;t books and boxes.  But anyway... there you have it.   
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The next question I ask myself how often do you win with 20?  All cases where no one lands in a chain of greater than length 10 (and so in all cases where no such chain exists) is an answer of sorts, but how often is that?  I&#039;m at a complete loss as to how to compute that.  My guess is that it stays fairly close to one half, but gets worse as you add more people and boxes.  (But it sure would be beautiful if it doesn&#039;t change at all, except by rounding error.)  I could program it to come up with an estimate, but instead I think I&#039;ll stop and get some work done today.  :-)  
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Steve, thanks for the puzzle.  This was absolutely fantastic&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That puzzle is absolutely fantastic!  I didn&#8217;t recognize it and thus got the fun of tackling it, but once I came upon a solution I became convinced that I&#8217;ve seen this before, perhaps with different particulars.  Is this a Martin Gardner puzzle or something?  Has it ever been on the show?</p>
<p>I started trying to solve it like one of my hat puzzles &#8212; trying to divide up the permutations such that when there is going to be any misses that there are tons of misses, but that correct guesses occur together.  It is possible to make improvements over random this way.  Consider 4 books / people, 2 guesses.  (I assume throughout that we can find a way to make the boxes under the tree ordinal in some sense.  &#8220;Closest to the southwest corner at the floor with ties broken by being southernmost&#8221; or some such.  I assume that solving this isn&#8217;t the puzzle you&#8217;re aiming for and I treat it as though you can assume the boxes are numbered 1-20.)  If you have people A and B both open boxes 1 and 2 and C and D always open 3 and 4, consider the cases:</p>
<p>  1:  A B C D</p>
<p> 2:  A B D C</p>
<p> 3:  A C B D</p>
<p> 4:  A C D B</p>
<p> 5:  A D B C</p>
<p> 6:  A D C B</p>
<p> 7:  B A C D</p>
<p> 8:  B A D C</p>
<p> 9:  B C A D</p>
<p> 10: B C D A</p>
<p> 11: B D A C</p>
<p> 12: B D C A</p>
<p> 13: C A B D</p>
<p> 14: C A D B</p>
<p> 15: C B A D</p>
<p> 16: C B D A</p>
<p> 17: C D A B</p>
<p> 18: C D B A</p>
<p> 19: D A B C</p>
<p> 20: D A C B</p>
<p> 21: D B A C</p>
<p> 22: D B C A</p>
<p> 23: D C A B</p>
<p> 24: D C B A</p>
<p>With this strategy, you get 1, 2, 7, 8 or 1/6, which is considerably better than 1/2^4 you get for random.  This kind of idea can be extended to larger numbers of boxes and perhaps improved upon, but it doesn&#8217;t feel like a candidate for your favorite puzzle ever.  I then had one of those pull-over-to-the-side-of-the-road epiphanies that you&#8217;re throwing away a lot of information.  Strategies of this form presume that you look into a box and see either your book or &#8220;not your book.&#8221;  You actually see some particular person&#8217;s book and can alter behavior based on this event.  That&#8217;s a lot to throw away.  How can we use this to cause good guesses to collide?</p>
<p>Consider person A assigned to open the first box.  If he finds his own book, he&#8217;s done.  When he finds a book belonging to X, his concern is to open another box such that if if he finds his book and X happens to open that box first, that X will make a good decision.  So if he finds B&#8217;s book, and he opens box 2, he wants B, if starts at 2, to open box 1 next in the case that A&#8217;s book is there and probably not otherwise.  This same logic should apply to everyone.  So generally, that means, that if you assign each person a different starting box, if they don&#8217;t find their book, they should open the starting box corresponding to the person owning the book that was found. Assume A assigned 1, B to 2, C to 3, and D to 4.  </p>
<p>In case 1, everyone finds their book straight off.  A happy result.  </p>
<p>In case 2, A finds his book.  B finds his book.  C finds the book of D, and so opens 4 and finds his book.  4 finds C, opens three and finds his book.  </p>
<p>In case 3, A finds his book.  B finds C, thus opens three and finds his book.  C finds B, opens 2, and finds his book.  D finds his book.  </p>
<p>In case 4, A finds his book, B finds C, opens 3 and fails.  </p>
<p>In case 5, A finds his book.  B finds D, opens 4 and fails.  </p>
<p>In case 6, A finds his book.  B finds D, opens 4 and finds his book.  C finds his book.  D finds B, opens 2 and finds his book.   </p>
</p>
<p>Already as many winning cases as my strategy above!  It continues:  </p>
<p>7: Hit  </p>
<p>8: Hit  </p>
<p>9: Fail  </p>
<p>10: Fail  </p>
<p>11: Fail  </p>
<p>12: Fail  </p>
<p>13: Fail  </p>
<p>14: Fail  </p>
<p>15: Hit  </p>
<p>16: Fail  </p>
<p>17: Hit  </p>
<p>18: Fail  </p>
<p>19: Fail  </p>
<p>20: Fail  </p>
<p>21: Fail  </p>
<p>22: Hit  </p>
<p>23: Fail  </p>
<p>24: Hit   </p>
</p>
<p>So we get to go to Paris a staggering 10/24 times.  Since 12/24 or 1/2 seems to be a theoretical maximum, that&#8217;s just astounding!  </p>
</p>
<p>To extend this to the case of 20, After opening your second box, you continue on by opening the box of the person&#8217;s book you find at each step.  This is the point at which I started to think I&#8217;d seen this problem before.  Since you&#8217;re following a sort of chain here, you have a finite number of states and since your box is sure to be in the chain (you started with the box to which you&#8217;re assigned) you know that if you could keep guessing and following this method that you&#8217;d find your book rather than being caught in a loop not containing your book.  </p>
<p>The only question is whether the chain that your part of is short enough to get there in 10 hops.  If you look back at the hits and misses from the case of 4, you see that you hit exactly when the state is one that could be obtained by sorting them so each person would find their book initially and the allowing the following operations:  </p>
<p>Leaving a book alone (generates a chain of 1).  </p>
<p>Exchange a book with another (generating a chain of 2).  (This operation can&#8217;t be repeating on any book already used in it, of course.)  </p>
<p>In case of a fail, something else happened.  Pick one at random, case 14: C A D B .  With this , there is a chain of positions  </p>
<p>1->3->4->2
</p>
<p>and only then back to 1.  A chain of 4.  There should be chains of 3 in there as well.  Looking&#8230; 4:  A C D B .  Position 1 is a chain of 1.  The other chain is:  </p>
<p>
2->3->4
</p>
<p>and then back to two.
</p>
<p>This chaining idea is familiar to me, but I can&#8217;t place where, and I&#8217;m pretty sure at least it wasn&#8217;t books and boxes.  But anyway&#8230; there you have it.
</p>
<p>The next question I ask myself how often do you win with 20?  All cases where no one lands in a chain of greater than length 10 (and so in all cases where no such chain exists) is an answer of sorts, but how often is that?  I&#8217;m at a complete loss as to how to compute that.  My guess is that it stays fairly close to one half, but gets worse as you add more people and boxes.  (But it sure would be beautiful if it doesn&#8217;t change at all, except by rounding error.)  I could program it to come up with an estimate, but instead I think I&#8217;ll stop and get some work done today.  :-)
</p>
<p>Steve, thanks for the puzzle.  This was absolutely fantastic</p>
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		<title>Comment on EK. The Law of Small Numbers by Casial</title>
		<link>http://mathfactor.uark.edu/2008/09/ek-the-law-of-small-numbers/comment-page-1/#comment-653</link>
		<dc:creator>Casial</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 03:22:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mathfactor.uark.edu/2008/09/04/ek-the-law-of-small-numbers/#comment-653</guid>
		<description>In which movie the fibonacci sequence is part of the movie?
I cant remember the name *grrr*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In which movie the fibonacci sequence is part of the movie?<br />
I cant remember the name *grrr*</p>
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		<title>Comment on Yoak: Average Salary by strauss</title>
		<link>http://mathfactor.uark.edu/2009/10/yoak-average-salary/comment-page-1/#comment-652</link>
		<dc:creator>strauss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:14:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mathfactor.uark.edu/?p=866#comment-652</guid>
		<description>We did this one on the radio once, with lots of hijinks about the high salaries at the public radio station. Great puzzle!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We did this one on the radio once, with lots of hijinks about the high salaries at the public radio station. Great puzzle!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Morris: Living with Crazy Buttocks by Stephen Morris</title>
		<link>http://mathfactor.uark.edu/2009/10/morris-living-with-crazy-buttocks/comment-page-1/#comment-651</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 19:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mathfactor.uark.edu/?p=825#comment-651</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Here is a clue, just in case you need one.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;[spoiler]&lt;a href=&quot;../../../2008/10/follow-up-loops-and-the-harmonic-series/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://mathfactor.uark.edu/2008/10/follow-up-loops-and-the-harmonic-series/&lt;/a&gt;[/spoiler]&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a clue, just in case you need one.</p>
<p><a href="javascript:void(null);" onclick="s_toggleDisplay(document.getElementById('SID720354820'), this, 'Show Spoiler &#9660;', 'Hide Spoiler &#9650;');">Show Spoiler &#9660;</a></p>
<div id='SID720354820' style='display:none;'>
<a href="../../../2008/10/follow-up-loops-and-the-harmonic-series/" rel="nofollow">http://mathfactor.uark.edu/2008/10/follow-up-loops-and-the-harmonic-series/</a>
</div>
</p>
<p> </p>
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